[Community_garden] Poison ivy, Americorps and photos
Don Boekelheide
dboekelheide at yahoo.com
Fri Jan 4 09:38:30 EST 2008
Thanks for the posts on what to do when poison ivy comes a creepin'. It is a natural part of things in North America, but it isn't a joke if you get a bad reaction. So, add my voice to the "Be careful!" chorus. I've heard of applying alcohol, in the form of Kentucky Bourbon, to relieve discomfort, applied by placing a bottle to the lips and taking a few good swallows, but I'd be very careful about that. Seriously, thanks for the info and an enlightening exchange.
I've been reconsidering with my first response of recommending the 'herbicide paint' approach (by the way, that means just on the cut end, not all over the plant). Not that this isn't an ecologically reasonable option if done properly (like I've said a couple of times, Sara Stein's Noah's Garden and Planting Noah's Garden are both very good reading), it is just that if I can avoid chemicals I generally do. It isn't terribly rational, I just don't "like" using them or something. So, after thinking about it and reflecting on what I've actually done to get rid of poison ivy and oak in the past, I probably would end up chosing the option of digging it out - or more accurately, I'd first look high and low for one of that 20% who don't seem bothered by poison ivy who'd be willing to help me with the task. But afterward, I don't think I'd mow or whack to control regrowth - I'd smother. I wouldn't want bits of poison ivy flying around or toxifying the mulch bag
on the mower. Also, cutting can stimulate growth responses in woody plants (depending on time of year). If you keep severely cutting back any green plant, true, eventually it will run out of reserves and die, but I prefer another means to the same end - smother mulching, where you lay down newspaper (thick layers, like the whole sports section opened up and laid flat, 3-5 sheets generally, then the whole local section overlapping several inches, etc) or cardboard, then cover that with some free woody mulch to 15-20 cm/6-8 inches deep (tree companies are good for this, I run out and stop trucks). That cuts off light and to some extent water needed for plant survival. I've actually used this technique effectively on bermudagrass as well. I'd cut the vine with a pruning saw, personally, since those vines "bounce" around, and chips and sap fly with a machete (don't get me wrong, a machete is a very handy tool, just I wouldn't use it for a clean cut on a
big gnarly vine).
One advantage with digging it out is that you could do that now, if the ground is moist and workable. Might be too cold where you are? Anyway, you could dig, smother mulch, and call it macaroni, and get on with the zillion other things there are to do in any community garden.
Morgen, you are Americorps? I've been wondering about applying for an Americorps vol to work with me on the homeless community garden - how do you like the work you are doing, and how did you find the position?
Now, change topic: Kristin, what format would you suggest for those pictures? JPEGs? What size file in MBs? Also, what kind of codes and passwords etc is ACGA's site going to ask of us when we try to post, if any?
Cheers, it is cold here today,
Don Boekelheide
Charlotte, NC
http://urbanministrygarden.wordpress.com
----- Original Message ----
From: "community_garden-request at list.communitygarden.org" <community_garden-request at list.communitygarden.org>
To: community_garden at list.communitygarden.org
Sent: Friday, January 4, 2008 8:38:43 AM
Subject: Community_garden Digest, Vol 333, Issue 1
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Today's Topics:
1. thanks for suggestions (Kuberek, Morgen)
2. Re: how to deal with poison ivy (yarrow at sfo.com)
3. how NOT to deal with poison ivy (Mike McGrath)
4. Re: how NOT to deal with poison ivy (Alliums)
5. The three cures for poison ivy (Mike McGrath)
6. images (Kristin Faurest)
7. Re: how NOT to deal with poison ivy (Fred Conrad)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 13:45:22 -0500
From: "Kuberek, Morgen" <morgen.kuberek at chpcolumbus.org>
Subject: [Community_garden] thanks for suggestions
To: <community_garden at list.communitygarden.org>
Message-ID:
<BD740BD9F37283419984006A730870960129625E at exchange.CHPNT.local>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Thanks, everyone, for all of your helpful advice!
Morgen Kuberek
Americorps Member
Columbus Housing Partnership
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 12:07:33 -0800
From: yarrow at sfo.com
Subject: Re: [Community_garden] how to deal with poison ivy
To: "Kuberek, Morgen" <morgen.kuberek at chpcolumbus.org>,
<community_garden at list.communitygarden.org>
Message-ID: <f06110401c3a2eb970786@[66.81.78.250]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Here's a column I wrote a couple years ago about avoiding it if you
have to work in areas that have poison oak or ivy. Even the bare
twigs can cause a reaction, so it may be safer to work on it after it
starts leafing out.
Living with Poison Oak
By Tanya Kucak
One of California's most beautiful wildlife plants is also one of the
most hated natives: poison oak.
Few native plants can match the vibrant fall color, adaptability, and
wildlife value of this shrub, groundcover, and thicket-former. It's
one of the most effective barrier plants, but best used away from
paths and well-used parts of the garden. Its signature "leaves of
three" come in a delightful range of shapes.
But if you haven't heeded the rest of the childhood rhyme -- "let it
be" -- your skin may bear reminders of the encounter for days or
weeks. And, of course, the bare branches, the white berries, and
smoke from burning branches are toxic to humans as well.
Knowing how to deal with poison oak is one of the most useful skills
for a native gardener.
I've encountered poison oak mostly in wilder gardens and along hiking
trails. A few years ago, wearing gloves and a long-sleeve shirt, I
got a mild case of poison oak on my upper arm. That's how I learned
urushiol, the allergenic oil, can wick through sweaty clothing.
I didn't get any poison oak on my wrists, which were exposed between
gloves and sleeve, because I routinely swab them with rubbing alcohol
after I finish working near poison oak. If you haven't used one of
the products that claims to create a barrier, this is the best way to
avoid a poison oak reaction: wipe the skin gently with an
alcohol-drenched cloth at the end of a work day.
That's because urushiol begins to bond with the skin within 5 to 10
minutes after contact, but gently wiping the skin with a cloth
drenched in rubbing alcohol can leach the urushiol out of the skin
for up to 4 to 6 hours after contact, according to Susan Carol Hauser
in a wonderful little book, _Nature's Revenge: The secrets of poison
ivy, poison oak, poison sumac, and their remedies_.
It's a delicate balancing act: the urushiol is soluble in alcohol,
but alcohol is easily absorbed into the skin. So you have to make
sure to use enough alcohol to wash away the dissolved urushiol while
being careful not to rub it back into the skin.
According to Hauser, copious amounts of water can also dilute the
oil, but normal amounts of water, packaged alcohol wipes, or soap (if
used without lots of water) can spread the oil. Avoid hot water,
which opens the pores and makes the skin more vulnerable.
Once a rash appears, the urushiol is gone. It has been chemically
changed and therefore cannot be removed (or spread). The rash is your
immune system's reaction. The oil can, however, remain on your
clothes and shoes, so wash them to avoid spreading it.
For severe cases, doctors prescribe corticosteroids, which interrupt
the allergic process.
In milder cases, gentle home remedies for itching include cool or
tepid compresses of plain water or a paste of baking soda or oatmeal.
My cousin Barbara, who battles poison ivy in her Virginia backyard,
uses a paste of epsom salts (3 teaspoons per teaspoon of water) to
relieve the itching for hours.
copyright 2006 Tanya Kucak
At 4:15 PM -0500 1/2/08, Kuberek, Morgen wrote:
....>We hope to have several solid volunteers by the spring time, but
before
>I can get anyone out at the site, I have a major poison ivy problem to
>manage. We have one electrical pole with so much poison ivy on it
that
>you could mistake it for a tree ( I am calling the power company about
>that one), but we also have poison ivy just generally throughout the
>site and the neighboring yard.
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 17:33:57 -0500
From: "Mike McGrath" <MikeMcG at PTD.net>
Subject: [Community_garden] how NOT to deal with poison ivy
To: <yarrow at sfo.com>, <community_garden at list.communitygarden.org>
Cc: , morgen.kuberek at chpcolumbus.org
Message-ID: <012b01c84e58$bcd6c720$3500a8c0 at mikedell4100>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Whoa! Time out!
The information in the post below is absolutely incorrect. You do NOT
have
hours to wipe off the urishol oil that causes the rash of poison ivy &
oak--more like 20 minutes. My sources (as a medical writer) are the
physicians who are called in to save people dying from the reaction (a
week
on IV steroids; sometimes in an induced coma) and who created Ivy-Block
to
protect firefighters. Urishol, these MDs note, causes the only
emergency
medicine situation in all of dermatology.
But some 10 to 20% of the population does NOT react; they can eat the
stuff
if that's their idea of a good time. Such people often think it hits
everyone and so whatever they do would be safe for others. Not so. With
a
radio show that reaches a million people a week, I quickly learned to
be
Hippocratic; that is to first do no harm. You will note from my advice
on
this list that I am almost always an abject coward. I am very proud of
this.
I prefer "this way is really safe" to "I did this and got away with
it".
If you're interested in my Poison Ivy removal advice, click here.
http://www.gardensalive.com/article.asp?ai=457
If the link doesn't come thru, go to "you bet your garden dot org" and
click
on "previous questions of the week"
A final note: Herbiceded plants may be dead, but they still have lots
of
urishol oil. Many a Round-uped plant has landed someone in the
hospital.
"Lets be careful out there, people",
---Mike
McG
PS: And yes, if its the little book I'm thinking of (I recycled the
copy she
sent me) I am familiar with that book, which was not researched, not
fact
checked and yes, I did give the author a good dressing down when I told
her
why I did not want her for a guest on my show.
(and her 'bee' book is even worse!)
----- Original Message -----
From: <yarrow at sfo.com>
To: "Kuberek, Morgen" <morgen.kuberek at chpcolumbus.org>;
<community_garden at list.communitygarden.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 3:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Community_garden] how to deal with poison ivy
> Here's a column I wrote a couple years ago about avoiding it if you
> have to work in areas that have poison oak or ivy. Even the bare
> twigs can cause a reaction, so it may be safer to work on it after it
> starts leafing out.
>
>
>
> Living with Poison Oak
> By Tanya Kucak
>
> One of California's most beautiful wildlife plants is also one of the
> most hated natives: poison oak.
>
> Few native plants can match the vibrant fall color, adaptability, and
> wildlife value of this shrub, groundcover, and thicket-former. It's
> one of the most effective barrier plants, but best used away from
> paths and well-used parts of the garden. Its signature "leaves of
> three" come in a delightful range of shapes.
>
> But if you haven't heeded the rest of the childhood rhyme -- "let it
> be" -- your skin may bear reminders of the encounter for days or
> weeks. And, of course, the bare branches, the white berries, and
> smoke from burning branches are toxic to humans as well.
>
> Knowing how to deal with poison oak is one of the most useful skills
> for a native gardener.
>
> I've encountered poison oak mostly in wilder gardens and along hiking
> trails. A few years ago, wearing gloves and a long-sleeve shirt, I
> got a mild case of poison oak on my upper arm. That's how I learned
> urushiol, the allergenic oil, can wick through sweaty clothing.
>
> I didn't get any poison oak on my wrists, which were exposed between
> gloves and sleeve, because I routinely swab them with rubbing alcohol
> after I finish working near poison oak. If you haven't used one of
> the products that claims to create a barrier, this is the best way to
> avoid a poison oak reaction: wipe the skin gently with an
> alcohol-drenched cloth at the end of a work day.
>
> That's because urushiol begins to bond with the skin within 5 to 10
> minutes after contact, but gently wiping the skin with a cloth
> drenched in rubbing alcohol can leach the urushiol out of the skin
> for up to 4 to 6 hours after contact, according to Susan Carol Hauser
> in a wonderful little book, _Nature's Revenge: The secrets of poison
> ivy, poison oak, poison sumac, and their remedies_.
>
> It's a delicate balancing act: the urushiol is soluble in alcohol,
> but alcohol is easily absorbed into the skin. So you have to make
> sure to use enough alcohol to wash away the dissolved urushiol while
> being careful not to rub it back into the skin.
>
> According to Hauser, copious amounts of water can also dilute the
> oil, but normal amounts of water, packaged alcohol wipes, or soap (if
> used without lots of water) can spread the oil. Avoid hot water,
> which opens the pores and makes the skin more vulnerable.
>
> Once a rash appears, the urushiol is gone. It has been chemically
> changed and therefore cannot be removed (or spread). The rash is your
> immune system's reaction. The oil can, however, remain on your
> clothes and shoes, so wash them to avoid spreading it.
>
> For severe cases, doctors prescribe corticosteroids, which interrupt
> the allergic process.
>
> In milder cases, gentle home remedies for itching include cool or
> tepid compresses of plain water or a paste of baking soda or oatmeal.
> My cousin Barbara, who battles poison ivy in her Virginia backyard,
> uses a paste of epsom salts (3 teaspoons per teaspoon of water) to
> relieve the itching for hours.
>
> copyright 2006 Tanya Kucak
>
>
> At 4:15 PM -0500 1/2/08, Kuberek, Morgen wrote:
> ....>We hope to have several solid volunteers by the spring time, but
> before
>>I can get anyone out at the site, I have a major poison ivy problem
to
>>manage. We have one electrical pole with so much poison ivy on it
that
>>you could mistake it for a tree ( I am calling the power company
about
>>that one), but we also have poison ivy just generally throughout the
>>site and the neighboring yard.
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
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> _______________________________________________
> The American Community Gardening Association listserve is only one of
> ACGA's services to community gardeners. To learn more about the ACGA
and
> to find out how to join, please go to http://www.communitygarden.org
>
> To post an e-mail to the list:
community_garden at list.communitygarden.org
>
> To subscribe, unsubscribe or change your subscription:
>
http://list.communitygarden.org/mailman/listinfo/community_garden_list.communitygarden.org
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 18:28:13 -0500
From: "Alliums" <garlicgrower at green-logic.com>
Subject: Re: [Community_garden] how NOT to deal with poison ivy
To: <community_garden at list.communitygarden.org>
Message-ID: <FDCFEB9CE4A8408DA0D5FC7F2D322482 at GreenLogic>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hi, Folks!
Mike is a wimp -- bow saw, my eye! We go after those poison ivy vines
on
the trees with a machete!
Of course, my husband, the macheter, is immune to poison ivy -- people
almost think I'm serious when I say that's why I married him! ;-)
(Actually, I didn't know until after we'd been married a few months,
but if
I HAD known, it would have definitely weighed in his favor! ;-D)
What do you think about Balsam (Impatiens Balsamina) as a "cure plant",
Mike? Personally, I love the flowers and look for every excuse to
plant/reseed, but I've had my volunteers slice the stem and rub it
anywhere
they think they have been exposed to poison ivy. I thought it worked,
but
maybe it was just the stem being so juicy.
Dorene
Dorene Pasekoff, Coordinator
St. John's United Church of Christ Organic Community Garden and
Labyrinth
A mission of
St. John's United Church of Christ, 315 Gay Street, Phoenixville, PA
19460
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 19:20:51 -0500
From: "Mike McGrath" <MikeMcG at PTD.net>
Subject: [Community_garden] The three cures for poison ivy
To: "Alliums" <garlicgrower at green-logic.com>
Cc: community_garden at list.communitygarden.org
Message-ID: <014101c84e67$a9c1fd80$3500a8c0 at mikedell4100>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
water, water, water
It removes the oil better than alcohol.
You got 20 minutes to do so on average.
Any 'cure plant' cures because it has lots of water in its leaves; you
got
to remove the oil--nothing on top of oil will have any effect. You can
rub
any plant on the skin you want--but wash the oil off first.
Stay safe!
---Wimpy (&
Popeye!) McG
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alliums" <garlicgrower at green-logic.com>
To: <community_garden at list.communitygarden.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 6:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Community_garden] how NOT to deal with poison ivy
>
>
> Hi, Folks!
>
> Mike is a wimp -- bow saw, my eye! We go after those poison ivy
vines on
> the trees with a machete!
>
> Of course, my husband, the macheter, is immune to poison ivy --
people
> almost think I'm serious when I say that's why I married him! ;-)
> (Actually, I didn't know until after we'd been married a few months,
but
> if
> I HAD known, it would have definitely weighed in his favor! ;-D)
>
> What do you think about Balsam (Impatiens Balsamina) as a "cure
plant",
> Mike? Personally, I love the flowers and look for every excuse to
> plant/reseed, but I've had my volunteers slice the stem and rub it
> anywhere
> they think they have been exposed to poison ivy. I thought it
worked, but
> maybe it was just the stem being so juicy.
>
> Dorene
>
> Dorene Pasekoff, Coordinator
> St. John's United Church of Christ Organic Community Garden and
Labyrinth
>
> A mission of
> St. John's United Church of Christ, 315 Gay Street, Phoenixville, PA
> 19460
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> The American Community Gardening Association listserve is only one of
> ACGA's services to community gardeners. To learn more about the ACGA
and
> to find out how to join, please go to http://www.communitygarden.org
>
> To post an e-mail to the list:
community_garden at list.communitygarden.org
>
> To subscribe, unsubscribe or change your subscription:
>
http://list.communitygarden.org/mailman/listinfo/community_garden_list.communitygarden.org
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 07:29:57 +0000
From: Kristin Faurest <kfaurest at hotmail.com>
Subject: [Community_garden] images
To: <community_garden at list.communitygarden.org>
Message-ID: <BAY102-W18C153F6963EF42CD8301BC64C0 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
Dear listserve members,
ACGA is looking to boost the visuals on its website and we need photos
in some specific areas. Here is a GREAT opportunity for you to promote
your gardens, since of course we will credit the photographer/garden
site. Please email photos not to this address but to
faurest.kristin at chello.hu
Big files are not a problem, so keep 'em coming, or you can just refer
me to your website and i can download from there.
Here are our specific requests:
>From this page,
http://www.communitygarden.org/learn/starting-a-community-garden.php#prepare
we would like to have pictures correspond to the following sections,
along side the sections entitled:
PREPARE AND DEVELOP THE SITE (perhaps a picture of the start of the
process?)
>From this page, http://www.communitygarden.org/learn/faq.php, a
pictures appropriate to "accessibility" and "farmer's markets".
Also, any photos showing interesting design ideas that you have worked
out would be very welcome!!! Does your garden have a design that varies
significantly from the typical rectangular plot layout? interesting
water feature, mosaic or sculpture made of reclaimed materials, some kind
of innovative style or planting plan? or some plant that nobody would
have thought would grow there?
Thank you in advance -
Kristin Faurest, board member, ACGA
************************************************
_________________________________________________________________
i?m is proud to present Cause Effect, a series about real people making
a difference.
http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?source=text_Cause_Effect
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Message: 7
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 08:39:45 -0500
From: "Fred Conrad" <fred.conrad at acfb.org>
Subject: Re: [Community_garden] how NOT to deal with poison ivy
To: "Alliums" <garlicgrower at green-logic.com>,
<community_garden at list.communitygarden.org>
Message-ID:
<6A1C23B5F035A04CA7322C243E9B03FD4150BC at ACFB-MAIL.acfb.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dorene,
I've used impatiens biflora (snapweed and I didn't check this reference
so be charitable if I'm off) for bee stings. It's a fun wild plant,
you'd have to assume any medicinal quality would be similar to the
domestic cousin.
One more comment about poison ivy! The real key to the whole thing is
the ability to identify it. If you recognize the plant in it's many
shapes, colors, sizes, lusters, and habitats, you can mostly avoid it
entirely or prepare yourself to confront it. I think that by and
large,
the plant is so tricky with the leaves being flat in the shade, convex
in the sun; dark green here, yellowish there; shiny and redish when
young, dusty and deep later; smooth edged, rough edged, oak shaped,
maple shaped; bush, vine, tall ground cover, hairy, intertwined, etc
etc
etc that many times it catches people off guard.
I give it a lot of credit for being so cheerfully random. I remember
back in the old days when it was known as Rhus radicans... We were all
younger then and the world seemed so full of promise. Now they've
changed it to Toxicodendron which sounds so hateful, and it's not
hateful, it just is what it is. We've hardened our hearts against it,
the whole world seems alien and less friendly and cold winds turn our
heads. Oh well, my fate is my destiny, as they say. I think I'm going
to get some more coffee.
fgc
Fred Conrad
Community Garden Coordinator
Atlanta Community Food Bank
732 Joseph E Lowery Blvd, NW, Atlanta, GA 30318
ph: 678.553.5932 fx: 678.553.5933
fred.conrad at acfb.org <http://www.acfb.org>
Our mission is to fight hunger by engaging, educating and empowering
our
community.
-----Original Message-----
From: community_garden-bounces at list.communitygarden.org
[mailto:community_garden-bounces at list.communitygarden.org] On Behalf Of
Alliums
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 6:28 PM
To: community_garden at list.communitygarden.org
Subject: Re: [Community_garden] how NOT to deal with poison ivy
Hi, Folks!
Mike is a wimp -- bow saw, my eye! We go after those poison ivy vines
on the trees with a machete!
Of course, my husband, the macheter, is immune to poison ivy -- people
almost think I'm serious when I say that's why I married him! ;-)
(Actually, I didn't know until after we'd been married a few months,
but
if I HAD known, it would have definitely weighed in his favor! ;-D)
What do you think about Balsam (Impatiens Balsamina) as a "cure plant",
Mike? Personally, I love the flowers and look for every excuse to
plant/reseed, but I've had my volunteers slice the stem and rub it
anywhere they think they have been exposed to poison ivy. I thought it
worked, but maybe it was just the stem being so juicy.
Dorene
Dorene Pasekoff, Coordinator
St. John's United Church of Christ Organic Community Garden and
Labyrinth
A mission of
St. John's United Church of Christ, 315 Gay Street, Phoenixville, PA
19460
_______________________________________________
The American Community Gardening Association listserve is only one of
ACGA's services to community gardeners. To learn more about the ACGA
and
to find out how to join, please go to http://www.communitygarden.org
To post an e-mail to the list:
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_______________________________________________
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to find out how to join, please go to http://www.communitygarden.org
To post an e-mail to the list:
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