[Community_garden] response to question aboutbiosolids(AKApeople poop)

Mike McGrath MikeMcG at PTD.net
Fri Mar 14 14:29:27 EDT 2008 

yeah--let's agree to disagree.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steven Garrett" <geografood at yahoo.com>
To: "community gardening" <community_garden at list.communitygarden.org>
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2008 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Community_garden] response to question 
aboutbiosolids(AKApeople poop)


> Mike,
> Yup, people put all kinds of crap (pun intended) into their toilets. As 
> counter-intuitive as it seems, it does not matter in the case the Kristen 
> outlined. The aerobic process breaks down all but toxins that people do 
> not have access to in any meaningful quantity.
>
> On the other hand, home composting is not nearly as effective in breaking 
> down chemicals and even unsprayed urban lawns and soils have toxins. To 
> wit, I was on a state panel to determine the safety of an industrial scale 
> aerobic process to break down pure grass clippings. These grass clippings 
> came from all over the county and you know the kind of chemicals that 
> people put in grass. Well to everyone's surprise, none of these chemicals 
> made it through the process. They were all broken down completely to 
> undetectable levels, even after only 5 days of hot aerobic decomposition. 
> The only toxins present were those which are now banned and never sprayed 
> on lawns anyway; Lindane and DDT. These are everywhere, on organic soils 
> and food and in your bodies.
>
> You'all can go on believing what you want to believe, but I am going with 
> the science and lab reports on this one. OK, now I am stepping off of my 
> Tidy-Bowl box.
> Cheers,
> Steven
>
> actually, quite a few [people] use the toilet as an all-around toxic waste
> disposal unit--and one of the problems with these meds in drinking water 
> is
> the old advice to flush unused portions.
> I say use yard waste compost first; bio-solids last in veggie gardens.
>                                                            ---McG
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Steven Garrett" <geografood at yahoo.com>
> To: "community gardening" <community_garden at list.communitygarden.org>
> Sent: Friday, March 14, 2008 1:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [Community_garden] response to question about
> biosolids(AKApeople poop)
>
>
>> Mike,
>> To reiterate, in the bio-solid case brought up by Kristen, we are talking
>> about residential toilets only. There have to be few people stupid enough
>> to pour oil into their toilet for risk of clogging their drains. Besides,
>> oil would be broken down in the aerobic decomposition process. Most 
>> people
>> do not have ample access to minerals/chemicals that would not be broken
>> down in this process. How many people have boxes of powered heavy metals
>> or persistent bioaccumulative toxins (PBTs), like DDT, laying around that
>> they want to flush down their toilet?
>> Steven
>>
>>
>> soapboxes are good; they make us look taller.
>> I also believe this material should be reused, esp on areas that need to
>> be
>> reclaimed and regrown. And I agree that many of the bad elements will
>> degrade in the soil--but they are there in the beginning and that's what
>> worries me the most.
>> I would personally use the Disney World compost--poop and chopped up
>> pallets--(you should see the set up they have!) because there's no
>> industry
>> there and no idiots changing their own oil and then killing millions of
>> amphibians to save a $2 disposal fee. But in a community garden? I
>> personally would not.
>> The best risk is the one not taken.
>>                                                                ---McG
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Steven Garrett" <geografood at yahoo.com>
>> To: <community_garden at list.communitygarden.org>
>> Sent: Friday, March 14, 2008 12:45 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Community_garden] response to question about biosolids
>> (AKApeople poop)
>>
>>
>>> Kristen,
>>> Thank you for your detailed response. I live in Tacoma and use (and
>>> contribute to) TAGRO. I gotta admit it took me a while to get in touch
>>> with my scientific side (unlike organic soils and inputs, it is tested
>>> thoroughly and often) and start using TAGRO for the food in my home
>>> garden
>>> (and the community gardens that I used to manage). However, as Kristen
>>> points out, TAGRO is somewhat unique. It is purely residential; no 
>>> street
>>> or commercial input. I would not trust the vast majority of bio-solids 
>>> on
>>> my food, nor knowing what I know now, would I condemn all bio-solids.
>>> Steven
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I'm writing in response to the question about the safety of biosolids
>>> for community garden plots.
>>>
>>> Yes, biosolids is the polite term for the solids left over after the
>>> wastewater treatment process.  Prior to the Clean Water Act's passage
>>> in 1971, most solids (poop) went out into nearby bodies of water.
>>> Now, federal regulations require that municipalities separate and
>>> treat their biosolids, and there is almost 40 years of research on
>>> how to do it well.  They are tightly regulated by the EPA for
>>> pathogens, vector attractants (how bad it stinks), and heavy metals.
>>>
>>> In 1993, there was an amendment to the law that created different
>>> classes of biosolids:  Class B, Class A, and Class A "Exceptional
>>> Quality".  Class B is subject to regulations and requires a permit to
>>> use, but is routinely applied to farmland (true, not organic farms).
>>> It is rich in organic matter and serves to replace petroleum-based
>>> fertilizer at low cost to farmers.  Class A is treated to a higher
>>> standard (often processed twice), is free of pathogens, and approved
>>> for home use by residential customers.  Class A "Exceptional quality"
>>> biosolids are an even higher class - free of pathogens and also
>>> adhering to even stricter standards for reduction of heavy metals.
>>> (Both Class B and Class A meet heavy metals standards that are
>>> already quite low - and certainly safe).
>>>
>>> The research shows thats the prescription drugs, solvents, etc. that
>>> end up in the wastewater system break down rapidly in an aerobic soil
>>> environment.  The bacteria that "digest" sewage are really
>>> remarkable, and can break down the complex molecules that form many
>>> of the "compounds of concern" - endocrine disruptors from birth
>>> control pills, for example.  The real problem with environmental
>>> toxins in wastewater treatment is in the wastewater.  Because things
>>> in water are in an anaerobic environment, they don't break down as
>>> quickly, and can cause problems for fish and other wildlife.  We want
>>> those compounds to end up in the biosolids because the bacterial life
>>> that exists in biosolids (and in healthy soil) knows how to take them
>>> apart.  (Heavy metals can't be taken apart, then must be kept out in
>>> the first place, which requires a good source control program).
>>>
>>> Sewer treatment plants act as the liver of the city, digesting many
>>> of the compounds that we humans, in our love of chemistry, have
>>> released into the environment.  There is much research taking place
>>> on how to improve the work, but the process as it stands today is
>>> remarkable and under-appreciated by most.
>>>
>>> I am not familiar with the wastewater treatment program in your area,
>>> but Class A biosolids are safe for home use, including vegetable
>>> gardens.  Yes, biosolids as a category are excluded from the National
>>> Organic Standards Act, but by using biosolids you are recycling a
>>> local product, and in a very real sense, closing the loop in the
>>> local food system.
>>>
>>> In live in Seattle, WA, and work in Tacoma, WA, where I use the Class
>>> A "Exceptional quality" biosolids from the City of Tacoma, (TAGRO -
>>> short for Tacoma Grow) in my work with the community gardens of
>>> Tacoma, and at home to grow my own food.  The heavy metals in Tagro
>>> are lower than background level soil in the Puget Sound region, and
>>> levels of lead and arsenic are lower than our region's yard waste
>>> compost. (Levels of zinc and copper are higher in Tagro, because
>>> those are in your pipes...)  But all are comparable to the soil in my
>>> backyard.  Check out www.tagro.com.  It is so popular, that it is not
>>> uncommon for demand to outpace supply by mid-summer.
>>>
>>> (Yard waste compost is not necessarily heavy metal free, and it is
>>> not subject to the strict testing that biosolids are.  Still, it's a
>>> good product to reuse for all the same reasons one should use reuse
>>> biosolids)
>>>
>>> As cities work to become more sustainable, it seems to me that the
>>> beneficial reuse and recycling of organic matter close to home is an
>>> important step.  We won't always have someone else's backyard in
>>> which to dispose of our messes, and transporting it far away is
>>> getting more and more expensive every day.
>>>
>>> I hope this didn't turn into a soapbox!  I'm happy to answer any more
>>> questions that you have.  Email me at kristenmcivor at mac.com.
>>>
>>>
>>> I strongly recommend against it. "Bio-solids" is nice talk for
>>> treated human
>>> waste from the sewer plant. (What's "Class A"? Poop from expensive
>>> neighborhoods?!)
>>>     This stuff is rife with the residues of prescription drugs (at much
>>> higher levels than the current drinking water scandal, especially
>>> antibiotics) and its contaminated with motor oil, solvents heavy
>>> metals and
>>> other bad things idiots and criminals pour down the drain.
>>>     I don't think its safe.
>>>     I would not let children or people with any kind of illness near
>>> it; and
>>> it is forbidden for use in organic agriculture. See if you can get
>>> that yard
>>> waste they mix it with, but all by itself; that's the best kind of
>>> compost...
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>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> ACGA's services to community gardeners. To learn more about the ACGA and
>> to find out how to join, please go to http://www.communitygarden.org
>>
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